Religion

Swiss · Jul 16, 2007

That's great to know, but you should have posted this in the Religion topic and you didn't bring forth anything to debate about.

EDIT: Never mind I merged the topics and thank you, cause I hardly get to use my mod powers,lol

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maq_daddy @ July 16, 2007, 11:03 AM) [snapback]8773[/snapback]</div>

yup and because God is patient, so @ Krahe it doesn't matter if you sin alot God will always love you and forgive you if you are willing to be forgiven and accept him as your lord and saviour.

mysticwaters · Jul 16, 2007

I didn't know that such a small comment of mine could spark off such a big debate. Haha.

About the serial killer thing, I think it is not about having some kind of relationship with God after conviction. I think it focuses more on repentance and reflection on your sin, which is somewhat different. If you are willing to repent on your misdeeds, you can be forgiven.

Ok, let me clear a little misunderstanding. I do think that the relationship between God and Man is very important, but we are Jesus's followers, so we should follow his teachings too. Read more of Matthew.

The relationship between God and Man, and living virtuously has a strong connection with each other. Doing good will strengthen our relationship with God, and having a strong bond with God can help us spread the love to our neighbours.

Whew. That came out all in one breath. x.x

Krahe · Jul 16, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiss @ July 16, 2007, 9:31 AM) [snapback]8778[/snapback]</div>

Shouldn't God love and forgive me regardless of my personal beliefs? And I still haven't been given a satisfactory answer to my questions concerning the fate of Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans/Wiccans, those born before Jesus, etc.

I ask again: If I live a good, virtuous life, never doing harm to others, I will be damned to hell simply, and only, because I am not a Christian? Does that make the least bit of sense? Is that something a "loving God" would do?

Why should someone - anyone - be punished just because they don't believe what you believe, what you claim to be right? What makes your beliefs any more valid than another's beliefs? Why is one right and one wrong? To me, claiming one religion or set of beliefs is superior to another is very arrogant and insulting.

And aren't there some branches of Christianity that believe their church is the One True Church, and all those, including other Christians, who aren't apart of it are doomed? Who is right here - those that say only Christians are saved, or those who say only Christians of a certain church are saved?

Honestly, that's part of the reason I'm not a Christian. It's like most see the afterlife as some sort of exclusive, members-only club ("You can go to a wonderful place when you die by being good, but only by being a good Christian. Heck, you don't even have to be good, you just have to say you're sorry and ask for forgiveness some time before you die"), not a place where the good are rewarded for the deeds they did in their lifetime.

Edit:

Yes, this is all your fault.

Nori · Jul 16, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krahe @ July 16, 2007, 1:18 PM) [snapback]8791[/snapback]</div>

God shouldn't do anything he doesn't want to. He is God. God is a jealous God, and does not want any other idles put before Him.

Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans/Wiccans all have the chance to be born again. For those who were born before Jesus, the situation doesn't change. God is still the one who allows you salvation not Jesus as a man. All people had a chance to get into heaven, just by having faith in God. Jesus was just the man sent to put you on the path, but God is still the creator. This will definitely seem confusing to you, but Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. It is all the divinity, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The way we as Christians worship God is through Jesus, but by worshiping Jesus were literally worshiping God.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krahe @ July 16, 2007, 1:18 PM) [snapback]8791[/snapback]</div>

Yes you will be "damned to hell," not because you're not a Christian, but simply because you do not have a relationship with God; He doesn't know you. If God never knew you, then why should He let you into heaven? That's like you letting someone you don't know into your house.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krahe @ July 16, 2007, 1:18 PM) [snapback]8791[/snapback]</div>

You definitely misunderstand how it works. As I said in my last statement. Why should God let you enter into heaven, if he never knew you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krahe @ July 16, 2007, 1:18 PM) [snapback]8791[/snapback]</div>

Having branches of Christianity is definitely idiotic. Christians should not be divided in any way. There's nothing in the Bible stating that Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, or any other denominations are better than any other. This is why you see many people either leave the body of Christ, or leave churches with denominations. Or you see churches become non-denominational churches, because they realize that your particular denomination wont get you into heaven. So to answer your question "Who is right here?" No church that thinks they are better than the other because of there "name" is right. Honestly, a Christian church/denomination that condemns other Christian churches/denominations is not heavenly bound at all and is closely sending themselves to hell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krahe @ July 16, 2007, 1:18 PM) [snapback]8791[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it is in a sense exclusive. In our faith people who believe in God will go to heaven, those that don't will not. But, there is absolutely nothing stopping people from believing in God except their distrust in people of our faith or the fact that they don't want to give up their current lifestyle to worship God and enter the kingdom of God. Some people seem to think that Christians are non-human, and that they can and shouldn't do anything wrong. Having a relationship with God and seeking to be like God (not to be God, don't get confused) should make you want to be a good person and to want to do good to others. But the fact that you are a Christian, doesn't in an instant make you good. Being Christian puts you on a path so that you can better yourself, and the fact that you actually want to give up things that hurt others, and your own self gets you into heaven.

I mean honestly can you deny the fact that people with faith in God are healed. People with cancer, AIDs, etc something that's tested by many doctors at a time and doesn't have a cure are healed and doctors can't figure out why, but the ones who are healed know exactly why. Or those who are on drugs that totally give it up after coming to church and being prayed over. It's a choice you have to make to become a Christian, it can't be forced on you. If you choose not to believe in God, then it's completely up to you. Christians are supposed to try and get you to believe in God, but we will never all succeed in doing so, and most of us understand that. I don't know exactly why you refuse to believe in God, and nor do I think I can make someone saved over a forum. But you having a relationship with God is between you and Him, and you would have to take the first step in trying to achieve that.

Entombment · Jul 16, 2007

All I have to say is this...

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

Maq_daddy · Jul 16, 2007

Nori, you are a man (or woman ??) blessed with Godly wisdom my brother (or sister)!!! Actually all that I wanted to say to Krahe, you have said, though you put it more elliquintly than I ever would have!!

Entombment, the difference between athiests and believers(of any faith) is that at the end of the day we believers have faith that our lives are going to make a difference, and that our feet are guided by someone above...... Seriously, with the stuff I've been through in my life, I know that at the end of the day (win or lose) that I can talk to God, and that he hears me and he feels everything that I feel (only more so because I am his child).

I can sleep peacefully because I have a hope in Him that tomorrow will be a better day, and that helps me cling to life when it is all turning to rubble!! As christians we do not look for evidence in other peoples religions to be able to dispute them, we are told that our God is the true God, and most of us have felt Him, spoken to Him, cried with Him. He is as real to us as any solid object that your hand can touch, he is the bringer of peace when someone dies or when there is trouble at home.

Like Nori said, He is a healer, when doctors can't do anything. So for me, no matter how much the bible or the Lord is disputed, I will breathe my last believing in him.

Let me ask you, what do athiests have in times of struggle like this??? When your family abandons you? when your friends are nowhere to be found?....... to be honest I believe in the saying that "there are no athiests in a fox hole".

Entombment · Jul 16, 2007

Meh, I take it as it comes

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

Nori · Jul 16, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maq_daddy @ July 16, 2007, 5:45 PM) [snapback]8804[/snapback]</div>

Just look at the profile, it's not that complicated......I'm a dude.

Swiss · Jul 16, 2007

@ Nori, exactly what I wanted to say. :biggrin:

Krahe · Jul 16, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nori @ July 16, 2007, 1:58 PM) [snapback]8792[/snapback]</div>

But, if there is only one true God and everyone who worships "false idols" is wrong, then what does he have to be jealous of? It's like being envious of a sibling that doesn't exist. Also, it seems to me that an omnipotent, perfect God would be above a petty, mortal, and worldly emotion such as jealousy.

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So, basically, he's God in a mortal form?

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But if God created me, then doesn't he already know me?

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No, if I'm misunderstanding anything it's how you think it works. How can God love all but damn those who don't believe?

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Because he's a compassionate, forgiving, loving God?

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No argument here. I think we can both agree that such a church is hypocritical, yes?

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I think you may be seriously underestimating the power of faith. It's not that they don't want to (even if that does play a part), but rather that they can't. It would be like asking you to give up your faith in your beliefs for another religion (A faith I do respect BTW) or asking you to believe that I'm some sort of six-foot-tall, anthropomorphic lemur. You wouldn't be able to do either of those things, right (Especially not the lemur bit, I hope

), because those things don't work for you. You haven't been given any reason to believe those things, even if a group of people say that they're true. Another group's religion or spiritual beliefs don't work for you, and your beliefs don't work for others.

That's why people get offended when someone says their damned for believing what they do. You're basically saying they're wrong, or that their personal faith - what they believe in their hearts to be true - is some how lesser than yours.

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But you can do good for others without being a Christian. Not believing in a certain religion doesn't make a good deed any less of a good deed.

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You can better yourself through other religions as well, and those religions don't harm others any more than Christianity does.

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I can't deny the fact that there are some things that can't be explained by modern science or medicine. Does that mean I believe in miracles? Well, I'd certainly like to. Heck, anything is possible, especially if people want it badly enough.

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I'm not so certain about that. Some people can really play that hellfire-and-brimstone angle, so it is possible that a few people will be converted by the fear of what could happen to them after they die, the fear of being wrong. Of course, if you're talking about true, depths-of-your-soul belief, then, yes, that is something that can't be forced.

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It's not that I refuse to believe, and it's not that I don't believe, it's because I can't put my faith in something that can't be 100% proven. There may be a God, there may not be a God, I don't know. If someone came up to me one day and presented unquestionable (preferably scientific) proof of the existence of God, then, yeah, I'd believe. Until then, I just don't worry about it. I'll find out when I die, one way or another. "Cross that bridge when we get there" and all that.

And again: Word. No use worrying about things we have no control over, right?

Edit: Heh, long reply is long.

Maq_daddy · Jul 17, 2007

Lol....sorry Nori. Didn't mean to offend, Just added the other titles for safety sake (had it thrown in my face before)....... that was after completing the post..... anyways, it still stands, you are trully blessed with Godly wisdom.

Doe · Jul 17, 2007

I'm with Krahe. It doesn't make much sense to me to value a belief that you may not follow closely over good deeds.

That said, what about the other monotheist religions? They believe in a God. Does that mean they are excluded from heaven just because their way of worshipping Him is different?

Swiss · Jul 17, 2007

nope, as long as they are not worshipping idols and worship God/Jesus in the way he wants them to worship they are fine. And all your questions will be answered in time and will not be ignored, do you know why? Because God is patient and he loves you and Krahe.

Maq_daddy · Jul 17, 2007

Ok Doe, to answer your question, we as christians believe that in order to enter heaven, you have to beleive that Jesus died to cleanse your sins..... Pretty easy concept if you realise that heaven is perfect and since we are all sinners (imperfect) we need to be cleansed to enter the gates.

Monotheism does not however give you access to heaven in the christian books because of what I have stated above..... The only way for us to enter heaven is to believe that God sent his son to die for us and then to grow closer to God, through prayer and faith in him. This is just what we believe. The only other monotheist beliefs that I know of (so you can slam me if I am wrong :tongue

are islam and judaism. We beleive that the Jewish people are God's chosen people (hence: Jesus was born a Jew)...... Which is why in our books, they will too be excepted into heaven (please guys feel free to hound me for this as you may have been taught differently).

Islam on the other hand, see jesus as a prophet as well, though they beleive that his writings were superceded by Mohammed (Geez I hope i'm gettin this right)...... so their beleifs conflict with ours, though they are also a branch of judaism. This kinda leaves me unsure of the islamic religion and how it ties in to their entrance into heaven??

At the end of the day for us, if you believe in Jesus, an you have personal relationship with God, then you are sweet..... The whole thing of Good deeds is a secondary effect of having a relationship with God (for christians that is)...... this is what we have come to call "fruits of the spirit", as in God's spirit calls us to help others, or preach his word, or even quitting a high paying job to move to the mountains of some way out country to spread his word and love to others. Hopefully this has partially answered your question.

Entombment · Jul 18, 2007

God will never be proven to exist in ones lifetime. No matter what. Because the Christian religion is one of faith, if he were proven to exist the entire religion would fall apart

Nori · Jul 18, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Entombment @ July 18, 2007, 9:31 AM) [snapback]8886[/snapback]</div>

Wrong! If science ever proves Gods existence the Christian religion would not fall apart. It will only strengthen it. Now we can prove to everyone He's real, without having to work so hard. Also, we still would have our faith, probably even more faith, in Him doing miracles and other supernatural things. Why would you think it would fall apart...that's a dumb theory.

Entombment · Jul 18, 2007

Well, first of all. God will never be proven to exist, because of that very fact. And that's the point. If he wanted to show himself, he would have. The fact is to believe in him, and know that he's there without having to physically touch him, have faith in him, regardless of whether you can actually see him or not. If someone had to see him to believe that he's there, then they'd be a fake Christian. And then the religion would be filled with it, corrupting the entire religion. You misinterpreted what I meant by 'falling apart'

Simple as that =p

Maq_daddy · Jul 18, 2007

Lol..... yeah you have a point there!! Though to most of us, we have no need for physical proof of Gods existence, we feel him and "see" his works in our lives all the time..... so we believe he just IS!!

:huh:

Swiss · Jul 19, 2007

#1 proof that God exists, we all have life. And I keep getting everything I want without asking
#2 If he didn't exist, people wouldn't be having so many theories about him.
#3 All of you are only debating about one God this entire conversation.
#4 In a dream, it came to me that I'll become admin, lol

Krahe · Jul 19, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiss @ July 19, 2007, 2:16 PM) [snapback]8981[/snapback]</div>

1. There are scientific theories about the existence and creation of life/the universe (evolution and the Big Bang, for instance), none of which factor a higher being into the equation and which are all equally possible, if not probable. And I don't see how you getting everything you want without asking proves anything, really.

2. That doesn't prove anything, either. People want to give our existence on this little blue marble meaning. They want to give a meaning to the things that happen to us, and they also want to explain the things that we can't yet explain. What better way than to come to the conclusion that everything is part of some higher power's plan, that a god is working behind the scenes.

In ancient times, people didn't know why the sun or the moon rose and set, and so they believed that they were gods or goddesses moving across the sky. In ancient Egypt, a solar eclipse was believed to happen because the sun god, Ra, was swallowed by Apopis, a serpent. When the sun set, they believed Ra was journeying through the underworld, to be reborn again in the East. Those beliefs, theories, were used to explain the things the Ancient Egyptians didn't know, but that science later explained. It doesn't prove the existence of a higher power, just that the ancients weren't as knowledgeable about the world around them as we are today.

3. Eh, if a god does exist, I can buy a "One being, many faces" deal.

4. And? Dreams are often a manifestation of our deepest desires, wishes, or fears.

Religion

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