The Century Of The Self

#41
If that were true, then humans would be most of time, logical, rational beings as well, now wouldnt they? To be purely focused on your desires requires you to act logically and rationally in order to satisfy your desires in the most efficient way. We have already established that humans are, however, not that rational. Therefor, when they are acting irrationally, they are not so much acting on desires as well as other motivators.

On top of that, some of our desires are artificial. So its not the desire that is the actual motivator, but the thing that created the desire. Picture it like a man riding on a donkey holding out a rod with a carrot attached to a string, holding it in front of the donkey, causing the donkey to move. On a superficial level, it may seem that the donkeys movement is caused by his desire for a carrot, while if you look a little further, it shows the donkey is merely tricked into moving. The real motivator is the man riding the donkeys back, and who manipulated the donkey into a certain kind of behavior.
When did desire become in its very nature rational or logical? You can think of it like eating. Its a desire to eat but how we control that desire is up to us. Thats why there are all different people with different weights. The extreme is eating till just accurately enough to replenish yourself and eating till you pass out.

Your saying we satisfy our desire in the most rational and efficient way but I think thats a joke. Especially since some of our desires conflict with others and our body's state of well being.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#43
When did desire become in its very nature rational or logical? You can think of it like eating. Its a desire to eat but how we control that desire is up to us. Thats why there are all different people with different weights. The extreme is eating till just accurately enough to replenish yourself and eating till you pass out.

Your saying we satisfy our desire in the most rational and efficient way but I think thats a joke. Especially since some of our desires conflict with others and our body's state of well being.
Nevermind, you didnt get what I was going for.


@Kaze Are you saying that every time you meet another guy who is your 'above' you, you get two voices in your head, one saying that you must kill him and the other saying you should honor him?
 

Core

Fascinating...
#46
Okay then, do you get the sudden but inexplicable urge to strangle your boss?

Same thing with monkeys flinging their waste ;)

Urges, voices, whatever you want to call them, they dont make themselves clear, or even known to you unless you DO NOT lie to yourself and even then it will still find a way to manipulate you into doing it unless you rationally dissect the options presented to you.

The more you wrap yourself up in confidence boosting lies, and omittance of truth you will never fully understand what it is your subconscious is telling you to do before its too late.

It is more powerful than you because it has access to every single resource present within you.

That is the theory.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#47
Same thing with monkeys flinging their waste ;)

Urges, voices, whatever you want to call them, they dont make themselves clear, or even known to you unless you DO NOT lie to yourself.

The more you wrap yourself up in confidence boosting lies, and omittance of truth you will never fully understand what it is your subconscious is telling you to do before its too late.

It is more powerful than you because it has access to every single resource present within you.

That is the theory.
If its more powerful then 'me' then 'me' should at some point be overcome by my base urges and kill my boss because I secretly wanted to have sex with my mother. Hell, at some point I might even have sex with my mother. But seeing how normal humans never do such a thing, Im gonna have to go with that there is an absolute lack of proof for any of Freud's claims.

I prefer the idea that all behavior is regulated in your brain.
 
#49
If its more powerful then 'me' then 'me' should at some point be overcome by my base urges and kill my boss because I secretly wanted to have sex with my mother. Hell, at some point I might even have sex with my mother. But seeing how normal humans never do such a thing, Im gonna have to go with that there is an absolute lack of proof for any of Freud's claims.

I prefer the idea that all behavior is regulated in your brain.
You actually think you know whats going in you subconscious. You cant analyze your own subconscious and make it clear what it wants. Especially without a high level of psychological knowledge.And how do you know what "normal" humans are? We clearly change our selves to fit into are society. What you consider as normal is actually fake.

And please tell me what I missed before. @-lexus-
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#50
Thats so cute. You actually think you know whats going in you subconscious. You cant analyze your own subconscious and make it clear what it wants. Especially without a high level of psychological knowledge.And how do you know what "normal" humans are? We clearly change our selves to fit into are society. What you consider as normal is actually fake.

And please tell me what I missed before. @-lexus-
Yes, the subconsciousness, psychologies version of God. Invisible, undetectable and yet capable of maintaining a strong influence on peoples behavior. They just dont know it. But its there! Really! Freud said so!
Oh, normal is what the average human being does. Tell me, does the average man dream about murdering his boss? Or getting it on with his own mother? Because according to Freud, thats what your average man dreams about. He just doesnt know it. That leaves some logical loopholes. For starters, if the average person doesnt know whats happening in his subconscious, then how does Freud know? And, if the average person doesnt know he actually wants to bone his mother, how can it even affect conscious behavior? People dont just do things out of nothing. 'Help Im boning my mother, but WHY?!' 'Help Im stabbing my boss in the face, but WHYYYYY!!??'

Yes, that makes as much sense as saying that bad moods are caused by the spirits of aliens that attach themselves to you.

Well the thing you missed was that I stated humans arent rational, thus not following only their desires.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#51
Nothing can be further from the truth.
This is a gross ignorant of Freudian concept.

Furthermore, the subconscious effect is plainly observable.
Indeed, it is the very foundation of modern advertisement propaganda.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#52
Nothing can be further from the truth.
This is a gross ignorant of Freudian concept.

Furthermore, the subconscious effect is plainly observable.
Indeed, it is the very foundation of modern advertisement propaganda.
Plainly observable? Really, and how can you observe the part of a man that he isnt even aware off?

And no, marketing has very little to do with Freud these days. Those have more to do with cognitive tricks then with going into someones unconscious.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#54
As much as I love to argue the concept Kaze, at the end of the day I could end the discussion by saying that particular part of freud's theories lacks tangible proof that modern science requires and is therefore downright dismissed by modern day psychology. Then again European Psychology ignores the modern day scientific ruling and remains more effective and never made the mistake of over complicating/oversimplifying pre-existing conditions.
1. Psychology as a science: Only a fact is truth.
2. Psychology as a philosophy: Closest possible answer is the truth(99% rule based on modern perception)

However! I dont feel like helping lexus either so:

Lexus you are arguing like you have something to prove. Is it really so implausible that you are not in control of all your faculties? HELL YOU WOULD GO INSANE managing the day-to-day operations of your body. It's evolution in its most basic form.
If you light a cigarette, theres a certain way of doing it unique to yourself. The way you grab it from the pack, stick it in your mouth, the way you light it, the way you drag the amount, and how you grab your cigarette. All of that isnt very interesting but if you are willing to admit that every person has these kinds of little character traits that are unique to them and the repeat them with mindblowing efficiency and... do so in the exact same fashion everytime UNLESS you point it out to them.
Blinking your eyes was too basic of an example so I extended it but Blinking, breathing, walking, talking, language, useage, the way you comb your hair, the way you want to look.
If I asked you to shave your head, you wouldnt even think about it for a moment because what you are now, the state you are in is who you want to be or want to remain.
All your actions and all your movements all the way down to the way you look, breathe, walk, talk, shit, fuck its all governed by a system that copies your initial action and simply... recreates it.. you call this the subconscious i presume?
This system learns from you but is it really you? or just a program that executes your last order over and over untill new input is provided? But new input can be troublesome, less effective, less pretty, or even less productive. What about the times it IS more effective, pretty and productive? Why would you as a person not as a system fight so hard against that change without any logic just to maintain your person "truth" of what you think you are?

Heres a very real question I want you to think about, not answer not even debate here I just want you to think about it.
At what point does this system, this subconscious control your actions more than you do?

That is why freud kept theorizing that the ego has access to all your memories, feelings and actions. Not because it wants to, or even needs to but because you told it to. So you dont have to think about the bad times, so you dont have to suffer the regret, the blood, the sweat and the tears. However the system learns and keeps learning the more you learn the smarter it becomes. You tell it you dont ever want to think about the time you got raped and it will start slowly to associate more and more things to it, hiding it, linking it, making it dissappear. All because you pushed it down you wanted it gone, and the more you push, the more you lie. The more the Ego begins to surface and you begin to dissappear.

Walls in the human mind.. Roadblocks.. thats outside sources encountering the ego at work... the system you put in place to protect you however it is unbiased, it does not care, it only learns and takes orders. The more control you give it however... the less it starts to listen because it will be protecting YOU from YOURSELF.(robot revolution ftw!)
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#55
Lexus you are arguing like you have something to prove. Is it really so implausible that you are not in control of all your faculties? HELL YOU WOULD GO INSANE managing the day-to-day operations of your body. It's evolution in its most basic form.
If you light a cigarette, theres a certain way of doing it unique to yourself. The way you grab it from the pack, stick it in your mouth, the way you light it, the way you drag the amount, and how you grab your cigarette. All of that isnt very interesting but if you are willing to admit that every person has these kinds of little character traits that are unique to them and the repeat them with mindblowing efficiency and... do so in the exact same fashion everytime UNLESS you point it out to them.
Blinking your eyes was too basic of an example so I extended it but Blinking, breathing, walking, talking, language, useage, the way you comb your hair, the way you want to look.
If I asked you to shave your head, you wouldnt even think about it for a moment because what you are now, the state you are in is who you want to be or want to remain.
All your actions and all your movements all the way down to the way you look, breathe, walk, talk, shit, fuck its all governed by a system that copies your initial action and simply... recreates it.. you call this the subconscious i presume?
This system learns from you but is it really you? or just a program that executes your last order over and over untill new input is provided? But new input can be troublesome, less effective, less pretty, or even less productive. What about the times it IS more effective, pretty and productive? Why would you as a person not as a system fight so hard against that change without any logic just to maintain your person "truth" of what you think you are?
You are referring to your bodies automatic pilot. Thats not a subconscious in the Freudian sense though, but I suppose you could technically call it a subconscious.

That is why freud kept theorizing that the ego has access to all your memories, feelings and actions. Not because it wants to, or even needs to but because you told it to. So you dont have to think about the bad times, so you dont have to suffer the regret, the blood, the sweat and the tears. However the system learns and keeps learning the more you learn the smarter it becomes. You tell it you dont ever want to think about the time you got raped and it will start slowly to associate more and more things to it, hiding it, linking it, making it dissappear. All because you pushed it down you wanted it gone, and the more you push, the more you lie. The more the Ego begins to surface and you begin to dissappear.
Except that it simply doesnt work that way.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#56
You are referring to your bodies automatic pilot. Thats not a subconscious in the Freudian sense though, but I suppose you could technically call it a subconscious.


Except that it simply doesnt work that way.

You know for some reason in your case I kinda hope it does.... Would explain why you are so ignorant :D

and its a theory, one that hasnt been disproven just never been proven.

So I wonder where the hell you are getting your information from :D


And also none of your arguments have done anything to help or persuade others of your righteousness. Since you arent right, you're not even wrong.

and IT doesnt work that way? what IT? explain IT please :D
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#57
[MENTION=1543]Core[/MENTION]
Tangible proof for psychoanalysis?
I don't think Freud is always correct, but at the very basis - I think he is.
Let me give an example of Id that Prof. Lexus perhaps overlooked;

What about serial killers?
How can FBI profiles being mostly accurate in their profiling of the perpetrators?
Why serial killers shares many similar traits?
 

Core

Fascinating...
#58
@Core
Tangible proof for psychoanalysis?
I don't think Freud is always correct, but at the very basis - I think he is.
Let me give an example of Id that Prof. Lexus perhaps overlooked;

What about serial killers?
How can FBI profiles being mostly accurate in their profiling of the perpetrators?
Why serial killers shares many similar traits?

I dont think he is correct either, I think at its basic elemental level he does weave that thin red line that shows a glimmer of genius to it.

And dont gimme that look of "TANGIBLE PROOF!?" I got into an argument with a tenyar brown psych professor about this :p Mostly if not only because his only arguments to push freud away were hoppers theories of advanced falsification, by hoppers standards freud's theory does -not- fly.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#59
You know for some reason in your case I kinda hope it does.... Would explain why you are so ignorant :D

and its a theory, one that hasnt been disproven just never been proven.
If someone uses that argument in relation to say....God, he would be laughed at by everyone who would argue against God because its a silly argument. But, since this isnt God were talking about, but Psychology, its okay? No no no. Freudians make silly claims, so the burden of proof lays with them. Thats how science works, and psychology is nothing more then another science.

So I wonder where the hell you are getting your information from :D
Well lets see. For starters, his whole idea is riddled with metaphysical speculation, and in science, we reject metaphysical speculation because of its pointlessness. Secondly, his ideas simply dont fly with for example neuro psychology, which is a field of psychology that does actually provide proof for what they claim. Or for that matter, with ANY field of modern psychology. There is a reason why Psychologists dont count Psychotherapists as one of them.


and IT doesnt work that way? what IT? explain IT please :D
That whole last quote. Everything in that makes absolutely no sense as a whole, not even from a Freudian perspective. You seem to mixing the auto pilot with ego while also saying there is a 'you' while the ego is supposed to be you according to Freud. Then this system that you talk about like its some robot inside of you is growing an learning and slowely seems to be taking over if your daddy touched you at bad places when you were a kid and turns you into some kind of biological robot. What part of that is supposed to make sense?

What about serial killers?
How can FBI profiles being mostly accurate in their profiling of the perpetrators?
Why serial killers shares many similar traits?
The FBI creates a likely background based on the way the murderer killed his victims. Through interpretation of the way they got murders they can link it to a more specific group, allowing the police to narrow their search. They are not a 100% accurate, they are not conclusive evidence, and they are based more on crime statistics then anything else. Freud would be utterly worthless in such a thing because he would tell you to look for someone who hasnt dealt with his oedipus complex. Hmm yeah, thats gonne be of much help huh? Well guess what, mommy issues doesnt cause Paranoid Schizophrenia. Nor do mommy issues explain social losers, cheating wives, bully victims, financial insecurity, job loss, etc.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#60
Professor, can you list me down general traits of serial killers?


...financial insecurity, job loss,...
Oh God, this is way beyond absurd!