What is "Death"?

[noex1337]

Religions or misinterpretations of religion both. I don't know why most are so eager to believe they have a "soul" that remains conscious after death.

 

[Biomega]

Religions or misinterpretations of religion both. I don't know why most are so eager to believe they have a "soul" that remains conscious after death.

That's what their religion clearly dictates: you will remain conscious even after death.

 

[noex1337]

That's what their religion clearly dictates: you will remain conscious even after death.

It actually depends. While I'm not sure about much of the other religions, I know most of those teachings in Christianity stem from misinterpretation of the bible, which is why I included it.

 

[Hadriel]

Religions or misinterpretations of religion both. I don't know why most are so eager to believe they have a "soul" that remains conscious after death.

That's because they don't want to believe that there is really nothingness after death.

 

[Biomega]

It actually depends. While I'm not sure about much of the other religions, I know most of those teachings in Christianity stem from misinterpretation of the bible, which is why I included it.

Not to mention the mistranslations and deliberate omissions and additions.

Let me reassure you, Judaism(the progenitor of other two religions, Christianity being one) and Islam(the second one)--their books--vividly describes to what happens to those who die, and what might befall them after they death.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

On the other hand, why not fear what you have no control over? Furthermore, I suspect that a fear of death stems from a fear of the unknown, rather than a fear of the uncontrollable. Despite how much faith can boost your courage, humanity is still painfully aware of the fact that no one knows for certain what will happen after death. Yes, religion does help to offer an answer, but there are multiple religions. People of one religion will eventually ponder, "What if the other religion is the 'right' one, and mine is the 'wrong' one?" The only thing people can be sure of is that death is not the final stop in our existence, but what happens beyond that is completely unknown.

Are you an enabler Hadriel? I ask because anytime I try to instill courage you aim to incite fear. Should I make logical bravery my objective, you raise the banner of illogical fear. Could it be that because you fear death, you want others to fear it? That aside you say that a fear of death stems from a fear of the unknown. Hm, accuarate perhaps. But where we differ is that based on your tone it almost sounds as though you think that such a fear is OK. It is understandable yes, but OK, not so much. Life is one big unknown in case I'm the only one who noticed this. None of us can be certain if our survival extends passed this very day. None of us have anyway of knowing if we're going to be alive in the next few hours. Should we live our lives in fear simply because "we don't know" when it will end? Should we fear the job interview because we don't know what game the employers are running? Should we fear that chemistry exam to the point where it numbs us? Should we fear that new movie because we don't know if it will be good? Let us all fear what we don't know. Let us fear everything.

Oh, I can see why some people would be worried about going to Hell or having nothing at all after death. Hell is described as a terrible place, so it's no wonder why people are afraid of dying and going there. As for having nothing after death, well, imagine you sleeping at night. Take the time between when you lose consciousness and when you wake up, and multiply that by infinity. You've got an endless repetition of nothing and nothing and nothing. Sounds pretty frightening, if you ask me.

How is that frightening? If we assume that death is "the big sleep" then all it is, is a nap you will never wake up from. Doesn't sound scary to me. Were I the type, I'd be more afraid of hell than nothingness.

Also, I think people's fear stems not from them going to a "bad" place after death, but of them not going to the place that they thought (or their religion espouses that) they would go. For example, if you're a Christian, you believe that you'll go to Heaven. But you know that other religions believe in reincarnation, or a pugatory. No matter how strong you are in the faith, you will always wonder, "What if I reincarnate/go to a pugatory?" It's cause for anxiety.

You presume way too much Hadriel. You cannot say, no matter how strong someone's faith is they will always wonder. You might be able to account for your experience only, and for clarification that's all you're doing, but someone who actually has faith would beg to differ. If I talk to Buddhist I find in a temple they're not going to wonder, "what happens." You might, someone else might, they won't. Even if they don't actually "know" as in which religion is the right one, to them, they know they are going to be reincarnated when they die. If I talk to any Catholic (a real Catholic who actually has faith) then they know they're going to heaven or hell. You of little faith, cannot speak for those who have more than you do.

Death is the permanent cessation of self awareness.
The does not think, does not exist.

As expected from you Kaze-dono. :cool2: I'm inclined to disagree though.

Religions or misinterpretations of religion both. I don't know why most are so eager to believe they have a "soul" that remains conscious after death.

Because the thought of the "permanent cessation of self awareness" is troubling. :confused2:

That's because they don't want to believe that there is really nothingness after death.

Is that another one of your assumptions Hadriel? :shrug: If you have proof, I would very much like to see it. I think we all would am I right? That way we can put an end to these silly questions about souls and the consciousness.

 

[noex1337]

Not to mention the mistranslations and deliberate omissions and additions.

Let me reassure you, Judaism(the progenitor of other two religions, Christianity being one) and Islam(the second one)--their books--vividly describes to what happens to those who die, and what might befall them after they death.

Am I safe in my assumption that they're all similar to the views of christianity (i.e. no separate soul, no continuing consciousness)?

 

[Hadriel]

Spoiler

Are you an enabler Hadriel? I ask because anytime I try to instill courage you aim to incite fear. Should I make logical bravery my objective, you raise the banner of illogical fear. Could it be that because you fear death, you want others to fear it like you do? That aside your argument simply does not work, at least not to me. You say that a fear of death stems from a fear of the unknown. Hm, accuarate perhaps. But where we differ is that based on your tone it almost sounds as though you think that such a fear is OK. It is understandable yes, but OK, not so much. Life is one big unknown in case I'm the only one who noticed this. None of us have anyway of knowing if we're going to be alive in the next few hours? None of us can be certain if our survival extends passed this very day. Should we live our lives in fear simply because "we don't know" when it will end?

An 'enabler'? What is that?

I'm not trying to incite fear. What I'm saying is that, although the religious ideal is for believers to be unafraid of death as they are confident of their deity's power, there are bound to be people with doubt. Perhaps you are one of them, and for that I respect you deeply, but some people will still wonder if what they've been told to believe by religious leaders has been wrong all the time, and that what lies ahead of the after death isn't the heaven/hell/pugatory/reincarnation they were led to believe. Call them weak in the faith if you will, but it's human to doubt.

Unless, of course, you were talking about a ideal scenario, or something humans ought to be, at which I have no comment, for I agree fully that a person's belief in his/her religion is inversely proportional to his/her fear of death.

How is that frightening? If we assume that death is "the big sleep" then all it is, is a nap you will never wake up from. Doesn't sound scary to me. Were I the type, I'd be more afraid of hell than nothingness.

Well, kudos to you for being unafraid of an eternal loss of consciousness. While the idea of that isn't outright frightening to me, it is rather disconcerting, imagining that death is a loss of consciousness you never ever recover from.

You presume way too much Hadriel. You cannot say, no matter how strong someone's faith is they will always wonder. You might be able to account for your experience only, and for clarification that's all you're doing, but someone who actually has faith would beg to differ. If I talk to Buddhist I find in a temple they're not going to wonder, "what happens." You might, someone else might, they won't. Even if they don't actually "know" as in which religion is the right one, to them, they know they are going to be reincarnated when they die. If I talk to any Catholic (a real Catholic who actually has faith) then they know they're going to heaven or hell. You of little faith, cannot speak for those who have more than you do.

Perhaps I should have phrased it a bit better. My apologies for that. I'm aware and I fully agree that people with incredible belief in a religion can be completely unafraid of death. I'm just saying that the normal believer on the street will have doubts now and then. I'm not saying that he/she will live in constant fear of death, just that sometimes these doubts may nag on the mind and disconcert him/her. Then, it's up to the magnitude of his/her faith to give him resolve to quash these doubts.

Is that another one of your assumptions Hadriel? :shrug: If you have proof, I would very much like to see it. I think we all would am I right? That way we can put an end to these silly questions about souls and the consciousness.

Yes, it was, but now in retrospect I realize that it is a rather absolute opinion, thus it is not valid, so I respectfully withdraw that assumption. Sorry if it might have been rather radical.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Am I safe in my assumption that they're all similar to the views of christianity (i.e. no separate soul, no continuing consciousness)?

To quote Hadriel, "Oh god no."

An 'enabler'? What is that?

:-.-:
Definition of ENABLER

: one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior


First Known Use of ENABLER

1615

Other Psychology Terms

fetish, hypochondria, intelligence, mania, narcissism, neurosis, pathological, psychosis, schadenfreude, sublimi


Fear can be healthy but fear stemming from illogical reasons are self-destructive and crippling. Your entire argument is based on an illogical fear of death. We fear death because it is unknown and that makes it OK. As if. Everything in life is unknown, nothing is certain but I don't think the average joe is afraid to go to the store. Well, depending on their neighborhood that would be a different story but then that would be logical. You come up with excuse after excuse as to why fearing death is OK but not one reason for why it may not be something to fear. You are an enabler.

I'm not trying to incite fear. What I'm saying is that, although the religious ideal is for believers to be unafraid of death as they are confident of their deity's power, there are bound to be people with doubt. Perhaps you are one of them, and for that I respect you deeply, but some people will still wonder if what they've been told to believe by religious leaders has been wrong all the time, and that what lies ahead of the after death isn't the heaven/hell/pugatory/reincarnation they were led to believe. Call them weak in the faith if you will, but it's human to doubt.

I think I'm fully aware of that. I'm also aware that you should have said that to begin with. Your initial argument was that all people of faith, no matter how strong that faith is would have doubts. That is what I took issue with. If the above was your argument from the outset then I wouldn't have challenged the grounds of that particular argument.

Unless, of course, you were talking about a ideal scenario, or something humans ought to be, at which I have no comment, for I agree fully that a person's belief in his/her religion is inversely proportional to his/her fear of death.

Fascinating. That is so deliciously Nihilistic. Was that Nietzsche or Dostoevsky? Hell, it might have been Hegel who was Nihilistic before Nihilism was fashionable.

Well, kudos to you for being unafraid of an eternal loss of consciousness. While the idea of that isn't outright frightening to me, it is rather disconcerting, imagining that death is a loss of consciousness you never ever recover from.

I suppose we're looking at the same coin from different angles. The way I see is rather simple. Suppose a person is afraid of losing their consciousness altogether. The way I see it, one would have to exist in order to experience the consequences of said fate. But if one has no consciousness they can't experience anything. No consciousness, no fear, no pain. There is only nothing.

Perhaps I should have phrased it a bit better. My apologies for that. I'm aware and I fully agree that people with incredible belief in a religion can be completely unafraid of death. I'm just saying that the normal believer on the street will have doubts now and then. I'm not saying that he/she will live in constant fear of death, just that sometimes these doubts may nag on the mind and disconcert him/her. Then, it's up to the magnitude of his/her faith to give him resolve to quash these doubts.

Is that not part of faith's purpose? :shrug:

Yes, it was, but now in retrospect I realize that it is a rather absolute opinion, thus it is not valid, so I respectfully withdraw that assumption. Sorry if it might have been rather radical.

I'm not opposed to that which is radical, controversial, or entirely outrageous. I only ask that when one makes a statement that claims to be fact, they are able to validate it. If you were to prove that when we die, hell that's it then I would be behind you 100 percent. Of course you can't prove that and that's why I called you out on your claim. This discussion is so educational without [lexus] being around to drop the average.

 

[Hadriel]

Definition of ENABLER

: one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior


First Known Use of ENABLER

1615

Other Psychology Terms

fetish, hypochondria, intelligence, mania, narcissism, neurosis, pathological, psychosis, schadenfreude, sublimi


Fear can be healthy but fear stemming from illogical reasons are self-destructive and crippling. Your entire argument is based on an illogical fear of death. We fear death because it is unknown and that makes it OK. As if. Everything in life is unknown, nothing is certain but I don't think the average joe is afraid to go to the store. Well, depending on their neighborhood that would be a different story but then that would be logical. You come up with excuse after excuse as to why fearing death is OK but not one reason for why it may not be something to fear. You are an enabler.

Ah, I see. Thanks for enlightening me. Well, perhaps "fear" was too extreme a word. "Doubt" would have been a better choice. Some people still have doubts about what will happen after their demise, and a side effect of that is fear, albeit a considerable rare one. Doubts will not necessarily result in fear, but can also result in reaffirmation of one's faith, which is a good thing.

I think I'm fully aware of that. I'm also aware that you should have said that to begin with. Your initial argument was that all people of faith, no matter how strong that faith is would have doubts. That is what I took issue with. If the above was your argument from the outset then I wouldn't have challenged the grounds of that particular argument.

Yeah, I realized. Sorry for not having made it clearer before. :cry2:

Fascinating. That is so deliciously Nihilistic. Was that Nietzsche or Dostoevsky? Hell, it might have been Hegel who was Nihilistic before Nihilism was fashionable.

I believe that I have clarified this further up when I replaced "fear" with "doubt".

I suppose we're looking at the same coin from different angles. The way I see is rather simple. Suppose a person is afraid of losing their consciousness altogether. The way I see it, one would have to exist in order to experience the consequences of said fate. But if one has no consciousness they can't experience anything. No consciousness, no fear, no pain. There is only nothing.

I believe we are. I believe that a state of non-existence is rather disconcerting. In the end, it all boils down to personal perspective.

Is that no part of faith's purpose? :shrug:

It is a part of faith's purpose! I never said otherwise. Faith is what helps people remove doubts about what will happen after they die.

I'm not opposed to that which is radical, controversial, or entirely outrageous. I only ask that when one makes a statement that claims to be fact, they are able to validate it. If you were to prove that when we die, hell that's it then I would be behind you 100 percent. Of course you can't prove that and that's why I called you out on your claim.

I see. I'll try to be more careful and clear in my claims in the future. Thanks for pointing out my fallacy!

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I believe that I have clarified this further up when I replaced "fear" with "doubt."

Let me say this another way. I said that your words "that a person's belief in his/her religion is inversely proportional to his/her fear of death," were Nihilistic. Nihilism comes from doubt not fear. I then asked where you heard those words from. I then cited Nietzsche who was one of the major Nihilist philosophers but also Dostoevsky who, while not openly subscribing to that set of beliefs did share similar ideas. I then noted Hegel who may have been Nihilistic long before anyone ever was. My aim was to discover who you took that quote from, not challenge the basis for it's application.

 

[-lexus-]

Oh, I can see why some people would be worried about going to Hell or having nothing at all after death. Hell is described as a terrible place, so it's no wonder why people are afraid of dying and going there. As for having nothing after death, well, imagine you sleeping at night. Take the time between when you lose consciousness and when you wake up, and multiply that by infinity. You've got an endless repetition of nothing and nothing and nothing. Sounds pretty frightening, if you ask me.

No, when there is nothing, I cease to exist. There wont be any dreaming, it will all just cease. I wont perceive anything because I do not exist anymore. Thats not frightening I think. It sounds rather peaceful to me.

 

[Hadriel]

Let me say this another way. I said that your words "that a person's belief in his/her religion is inversely proportional to his/her fear of death," were Nihilistic. Nihilism comes from doubt not fear. I then asked where you heard those words from. I then cited Nietzsche who was one of the major Nihilist philosophers but also Dostoevsky who, while not openly subscribing to that set of beliefs did share similar ideas. I then noted Hegel who may have been Nihilistic long before anyone ever was. My aim was to discover who you took that quote from, not challenge the basis for it's application.

I didn't hear them from anyone. I just came up with it as an assumption of mine. With my previous modification of fear to doubt, a revised version would go like this: "A person's faith is inversely proportional to his/her doubt of what happens after death".

@Lexus: Kudos to you then. I find it disconcerting. It boils down to personal perspective in this case.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I didn't hear them from anyone. I just came up with it as an assumption of mine. With my previous modification of fear to doubt, a revised version would go like this: "A person's faith is inversely proportional to his/her doubt of what happens after death".

NOW THIS is interesting. Are you familiar with synchronocity? Synchronocity is the belief that several people can share the exact same idea without ever encountering one another or even a similar set of beliefs. Your words concerning faith and one's thoughts on death is not the first time I've heard them. You Hadriel reached the exact same conclusion as other great thinkers without even being familiar with them. This is synchronocity in action.

 

[Hadriel]

NOW THIS is interesting. Are you familiar with synchronocity? Synchronocity is the belief that several people can share the exact same idea without ever encountering one another or even a similar set of beliefs. Your words concerning faith and one's thoughts on death is not the first time I've heard them. You Hadriel reached the exact same conclusion as other great thinkers without even being familiar with them. This is synchronocity in action.

Really? Isn't that logical? Like, if I'm a Christian, I believe I'll go to heaven, but earlier on in my belief, I still have my doubts as to what will happen when I die. As my faith grows stronger, I believe more and more that I'll go to heaven, thus I have less and less doubts on what will happen when I die.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Really? Isn't that logical? Like, if I'm a Christian, I believe I'll go to heaven, but earlier on in my belief, I still have my doubts as to what will happen when I die. As my faith grows stronger, I believe more and more that I'll go to heaven, thus I have less and less doubts on what will happen when I die.

Well that's not exactly the same thing. :grin:

 

[Hadriel]

Well that's not exactly the same thing. :grin:

Well, that's how I perceived it. :coolgrin:

 

[Kaze Araki]

As expected from you Kaze-dono. :cool2: I'm inclined to disagree though.

It's a consequence of my cosmological view. By extent, life after "biological death" (e.g. spirits, ghosts, heaven and hell etc. - if exist) are not counted as death according to my definition. Counter-intuitively; a patient that is on a permanent brain dead vegetative state, despite being biologically alive - is dead according to my definition.

Because the thought of the "permanent cessation of self awareness" is troubling. :confused2:

It is troubling because I desire to exist (and therefore; to think). I don't wish to die but I'm content with our inability to escape death.

 

[noex1337]

Why can't we all be happy just dying. As lexus said, it's peaceful if you think about it. Maybe nihilists are peacemakers after all.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Noex

Why can't we all be happy just dying. As lexus said, it's peaceful if you think about it. Maybe nihilists are peacemakers after all.

What? What?! Are you endorsing [lexus]? What?! :confused2: This has been one helluva Monday. You ask why can't we all be happy just dying? I would ask why is that we can't all be happy just living? :shrug:


Humans waste so much time thinking about death and dying. And even those who don't often traispe through life chasing one fleeting endeavor after another in a meaningless succession of trivial pursuits. Why is it that people cannot be content with what they have? Why are people greedy? Why must people chase anything? What is the point of ambition? Socrates teaches us that the pursuit of all men is happiness and because we all have different ideas of what happiness is, we have different means of reaching what we think that is. This is why we have problems. Noex, how can you expect people to be happy just dying when most humans don't really know what happiness really is?